How does the EPA calculate miles per gallon?

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Ben Bowlin: Hello, thanks for tuning in. Welcome to the podcast. As we know by now, I'm Ben and I'm hanging out here with howstuffworks.coms own Scott Benjamin.

Scott Benjamin: Hey, Ben, how's it going?

Ben Bowlin: It's going pretty well, man. Hey, you're still the auto editor, right?

Scott Benjamin: Correct, yes.

Ben Bowlin: Oh, good, good, because otherwise, this would be kind of awkward.

Scott Benjamin: Yeah, it would.

Ben Bowlin: I mean, we could still hang out but, you know, -

Scott Benjamin: Talking about cars just -

Ben Bowlin: Yeah.

Scott Benjamin: - hang out.

Ben Bowlin: We'd just be, like, yeah, we'd just be hanging out. And how fortuitous it is that you're still the auto editor and I still have questions for you so let me give it a shot here. You know how whenever you see a car commercial or whenever you hear something from a consumer guide about a vehicle, often times, they also include the estimated miles per gallon or MPG.

Scott Benjamin: Yeah, sure. They do - usually it's broken down even into city and highway miles if you notice that and there's a reason for that. That's from very detailed testing that happens in a lab. It's actually a government agency that does that.

Ben Bowlin: Yes, the EPA, the Environment Protection Agency and they're in charge of, you know, we hear a lot about them from - miles per gallon is one of the things that we might not be so familiar with them doing because a lot of times they're associated with pollution control or with supervising the contaminants or the pollution or the waste disposal practices of businesses and, you know, super fun sites and things like that, but they're also in charge of MPG.

Scott Benjamin: That's right. They're not necessarily in charge of it but they are the government agency that does the testing that actually gives us the rating numbers so manufacturers - you know, we associate the numbers that we see in a window sticker on a new vehicle, city and highway miles and then kind of a combined average. That - those numbers are the result of very, very specific tests that are run by either the EPA or the manufacturer themselves and we can talk about that in a second but now the manufacturers often run the same tests that the EPA runs and the EPA verifies the numbers. That's kind of how that works.

Ben Bowlin: Okay. I see so the EPA almost does a control or a quality control check on some of it?

Scott Benjamin: Yeah, they do. They're taking a sample of vehicles. I think I read somewhere that it's like 10 to 15 percent which are actually confirmed by the EPA but it's a good sample, it's a representative sample and they're pretty accurate because, you know, manufacturers don't want to come out and claim something that's just way off the charts because of course the EPA will verify it and say, no, sorry, you're making this up, you know, you guys are lying on this one. That just wouldn't last too long so it's in the best interest of the manufacturer to actually do the testing in the exact same way that the EPA would do the test and come up with numbers that make sense.

Ben Bowlin: Okay.

Scott Benjamin: Real world numbers I should say. Real world numbers.

Ben Bowlin: Oh, right, because, as we know, the caveat that we always hear on this is actual mileage may vary.

Scott Benjamin: That's right. Your actual mileage may vary and that's something that you'll see in just about every automotive ad, every print ad, you'll hear it on the radio; you'll hear it from dealers.

Ben Bowlin: Yeah, that's right.

Scott Benjamin: It depends greatly on how the person drives; it depends on climate conditions; it depends on atmospheric conditions.

Ben Bowlin: Sure.

Scott Benjamin: If the air is more dense, if it's humid; you altitude determines mileage. There's just an unbelievable amount of factors that determine actually how many miles per gallon you get.

Ben Bowlin: Oh, talk about that very strange one that you had told me about earlier before we went on to do this episode, the amount of gas in your gas tank.

Scott Benjamin: Yeah, you know what, we were thinking about this. We were talking about this earlier and this hadn't occurred to me really. Maybe we had mentioned it in another podcast, I'm not sure.

Ben Bowlin: In Hyper [inaudible].

Scott Benjamin: Yeah, but now that we're talking about mileage, this makes sense again.

Ben Bowlin: Yeah, so bear with us with here but -

Scott Benjamin: But one gallon of gasoline weighs about 6.3 pounds and this is according to so if one gallon of gasoline weighs 6.3 pounds, if the tank is getting lighter as you're driving, it seems like your gas mileage would improve as you get closer to the end of the tank. Now, that's probably not any outstanding statement that somebody would say, wow, you know, I never ever thought of that before because I'm sure a lot of people have thought of that. A lot of people don't fill up their tank just for this reason but if you think of it - maybe a lot of people haven't really thought about this because - and I've got a little example here but if you've got 14 gallons of fuel in a tank which is - I guess kind of standard, I don't know if it's average or what, but if you multiple that by 6.3 pounds, that's 88.2 pounds of fuel that you're carrying around. So, when you leave the gas station, you're carrying 88.2 pounds of fuel. By the time you get down to a quarter tank of fuel in that same vehicle, which is only three and a half gallons, you're only carrying 22 pounds of fuel so you've lightened the load there by 66 pounds. That's a significant amount and I would have to believe that that would increase your miles per gallons so the light weight your vehicle is, the better the mileage would be.

Ben Bowlin: And that's just one great example of how many factors go into an actual measure of miles per gallon on the road, and when you're testing it, just like crash-testing, you can't always count in every factor and thus actual miles per gallon may vary, but, you know what Scott, what we should probably get into, riddle me this, how does this testing actually work because let me be completely above the board with you. Sometimes we talk about these things before the episode begins but right now, I have no idea. I am a blank slate, an open book.

Scott Benjamin: Okay. Ben, for the testing, it's pretty simple really. What they do is it's actually conducted in a lab. All of the EPA testing is conducted in a lab and I may think that it sounds, like, well, how can they recreate every situation in a lab, well, actually that's even better for them because it can control the situation exactly and the dynamometer is set up to produce a certain amount of resistance and it actually helps them to do it this way. It's very precise, it's electronically controlled and it's exact.

Ben Bowlin: Woo, woo, woo.

Scott Benjamin: Yeah.

Ben Bowlin: What's the name of this device again?

Scott Benjamin: Dynamometer.

Ben Bowlin: All right. What does it do?

Scott Benjamin: It - I'm sure you've seen this before. You probably just didn't know what it was called. It's the roller system that a vehicle pulls on top of so that the vehicle can actually drive without - or it can be run through its gears with the engine running, everything the way it should be operating as if you're on the road but the car is not moving.

Ben Bowlin: That's crazy.

Scott Benjamin: Yeah, you've seen it before though. I'm sure you have.

Ben Bowlin: Yeah, I think I have now that you say it. I just didn't know the name. It sounds almost like a treadmill for cars.

Scott Benjamin: That's exactly what it is except there isn't usually a running track underneath it, it's more of a roller system so the vehicle is kind of balanced between a few rollers. It's actually a pretty good setup and way to do that and they can mimic real world situations in the lab almost - I shouldn't say almost better but, yeah, in case of, like, temperature and drag and things like that, they can manipulate the dynamometer in a way that it's accurate, maybe even more so than out in the real world with the temperatures and conditions like that because you'd have wind and things like that to deal with that you don't there. And the can simulate all that in the lab exact.

Ben Bowlin: Yeah, and it's a smart idea, too, when you think about how far you would have to drive or how many different locations you would have to have to get something as simple as differing temperatures.

Scott Benjamin: Yeah, that's right. And being electronically called as can be exact the first time and correct every time so it just seems to work out well but I guess we should get into the test, right.

Ben Bowlin: Yeah, you're reading my mind. What kind of tests are they doing?

Scott Benjamin: Okay. Well, the tests that they're doing - now, of course they've got a - now, if you've got a city and highway mileage rating, you know that there's a city and highway test, right?

Ben Bowlin: Yes.

Scott Benjamin: Well, very recently, in 2008, they added three additional tests to this cue, this rundown of - routine of tests that they run vehicles through and they added a high speed test, an air conditioning test and a cold temperature test in 2008. Now, prior to that, - now, these tests were developed in the 1960s so they were based on kind of every day driving in the 1960s.

Ben Bowlin: Okay. The first two tests?

Scott Benjamin: The first two tests. Yeah, we're just talking about city and highway. Those are the only ones that existed until 2008. So, the first tests were developed in 1960s, again, city and highway only and those tests were the same tests that were used all the way through 1985.

Ben Bowlin: So, that's what - that's more than two decades.

Scott Benjamin: Yeah, more than two decades. It could be as long - I mean, it depends on when it was developed in the 1960s. I'm not clear on the exact start date but in 1985 is when it received its first update so they finally determined that hey, you know what, maybe these are a little bit outdated, let's adapt our tests so that it's more real world.

Ben Bowlin: Yeah, I don't know, Scott. That seems a little bit of a gap there because just between the 60s and just - really, just between the 60s and 70s; there were so many innovations with the design of an automobile.

Scott Benjamin: Yeah, it was different. I mean -

Ben Bowlin: 1985?

Scott Benjamin: 1985. Yeah, and, you know, then it was until, again, until 2008 when it was updated once again so there's these long gaps in between so I think that the new numbers - well, actually, the new numbers are more o f a - I guess a better sampling of what real world conditions are and I guess the reason here is that - and this is coming from our article on our site. We'll talk about that in a moment. But the reasons are because cars accelerate faster, there's more accessories that they're powering, some people have a lot of things happening inside their car, you know, they're powering, you know, you've got AC - especially AC, that's the big one really, air conditioning.

Ben Bowlin: AC is the MPG killer.

Scott Benjamin: That's right. It is. Well, maybe not as bad as you think but it does drag it down quite a bit and it's just something that the 1960s vehicles, it just wasn't a factor then.

Ben Bowlin: Sure.

Scott Benjamin: I mean, the other thing is that they're higher highway speeds that are happening now. I mean, people driving - not that people didn't drive fast. I'm just saying that average highway speeds are a lot higher than they were in the 1960s and that's just what - kind of what's going on.

Ben Bowlin: That's a good point.

Scott Benjamin: So, for the most part, that's what these tests are kind of adapted to - well, adapt to.

Ben Bowlin: And from these tests, the EPA calculates miles per gallon for a vehicle?

Scott Benjamin: Yeah, that's right and it's actually really complex the way they do it and we can talk about how they go through it. We won't go into great detail about it but I can kind of run down what each test includes and we can just mention them I guess as we go back [inaudible] -

Ben Bowlin: Now, keep in mind, before we get started, you know I love a good list but this is really the first time I'm hearing about this stuff so if I ask a question that sounds crazy, then just tell me that's a crazy question and keep going.

Scott Benjamin: I'm ready for it.

Ben Bowlin: All right.

Scott Benjamin: I'm ready for it so go ahead and fire away whenever you hear anything [inaudible] question. All right.

Ben Bowlin: All right. You list away; I'll stand by the fire.

Scott Benjamin: And these are the old two, remember, the two original tests but they have been updated. I guess modernized. Okay. There's the city test, which is urban driving of course and that starts with the cold engine and its driven in a stop and go - driven in stop and go traffic. This is right from the site so these are the explanation of their tests. There's the highway test which is a mix of rural and interstate highway driving. The engine is warmed up and it includes free flowing traffic so it does have some congestion but free flowing traffic. Okay. Now, we'll get into the three that were added in 2008.

Ben Bowlin: High speed tests.

Scott Benjamin: High speed tests. Very good, Ben, yeah, you knew. Good memory. And city and highway driving, that's what that includes, higher speeds with aggressive acceleration and breaking. So, that kind of sounds like my daily commute, doesn't it? I mean, it sounds like what you deal with all around you. Not saying that I do all this, I'm saying, I see this every day.

Ben Bowlin: Sure, yeah, well, you know Atlanta is - we have a reputation for traffic so I - you know, I don't know, man, honestly, not to interrupt the list but based on some of our past conversations, I could see you being one of the high speed testers.

Scott Benjamin: Maybe, maybe, but it's a lab test so I don't know how much fun that would be if you're really doing it.

Ben Bowlin: Yeah, all right.

Scott Benjamin: Anyways, okay, air conditioning test is next and just what it sounds like. Using the AC but that's when it's hot outside and the outside conditions are, oddly enough, 95 degrees Fahrenheit which this week, here in Atlanta, it has been 95 degrees just about every day.

Ben Bowlin: Oh, it's going to be a long summer.

Scott Benjamin: Yeah, that's right so the air conditioning test is something that I'm paying attention to right now.

Ben Bowlin: Yeah, definitely.

Scott Benjamin: And then there's also a cold-temperature test which, again, cold - outside temperatures and that's in stop and go traffic so that, again, makes sense but, again, those are three tests that - the last three, the high-speed test, the air conditioning test, and the cold temperature test were added in 2008, and prior to that, not a factor so your mileage was typically a little higher.

Ben Bowlin: Yeah, I was going to ask, how did this affect MPGs across the board?

Scott Benjamin: Well, across the board, it actually lowered miles per gallon in a lot of vehicles, actually, in every vehicle and, again, I keep saying we'll get to this in a minute but we will, overall, the fuel economy rate has dropped for all these cars, just about every car really.

Ben Bowlin: You know car makers did not like that any little bit.

Scott Benjamin: No, they did not, neither did car dealers because suddenly they have to advertise a vehicle that is the same vehicle that was there in 2007, same everything in 2007; now in 2008 with the revised numbers, it gets lower miles per gallon or it has a lower mile per gallon rating. That's got to be tough. Yeah, that's right. And, in our article, we have an example of the 2007 Toyota Camry so in - with the old numbers, it had a 24 city/33 highway rating and that was -

Ben Bowlin: That's pretty good.

Scott Benjamin: Yeah, that's not bad. - 27 combined. Under the new testing regulations or the new testing ratings, it gets 21 city/30 highway which is a 24 miles per gallon combined rating.

Ben Bowlin: Yeah, I see where you're going because -

Scott Benjamin: Yeah, so it drops three miles per gallon.

Ben Bowlin: And because a lot of times Camry consumers are very aware of mile per gallon ratings.

Scott Benjamin: Yeah, they're looking for an affordable car that is also a miser when it comes to fuel so yeah this has got to hurt them. I would think that, overall, it's got to hurt everybody. But, again, it's more accurate and I think that this is a better scale to judge everybody on because this modern day.

Ben Bowlin: Sure, it's not as though - although it's easy to look at it from the perspective of saying oh, no, they're lowering our MPG rating, what's actually happening is we're getting a real more realistic rating, right?

Scott Benjamin: Yeah, correct. Yeah, and the thing is it dropped everybody's at the same time. It wasn't like we're picking on one, you know, one segment or one manufacturer, it's everybody. And, again, I said it dropped over bit I believe that the percentage was that the fuel economy for all cars dropped by about - and this is just an average -

Ben Bowlin: Sure.

Scott Benjamin: - about 12 percent in the city and about 8 percent on the highway. And, some - that's not for everybody though because that's an average, some fell as much as 30 percent in the city and 25 percent on the highway which I find pretty remarkable because that's significant, that's a big drop.

Ben Bowlin: Yeah, those guys - those vehicles must have been in just the perfect storm, statistically.

Scott Benjamin: Yeah, I think so. So, that really did hurt several manufacturers when it came to the new numbers.

Ben Bowlin: So, now, for our listeners who maybe have a car that was pre-2008 and thought they knew their MPG, now the question becomes how do I figure out my MPG rating is?

Scott Benjamin: You don't necessarily have to figure it out yourself which is good. If you go to - there's a site called, I've mentioned it a couple times.

Ben Bowlin: And we can't say enough good about it.

Scott Benjamin: No, it's actually a very good site. Of course it's a government run site. It's got a lot of great information about fuel economy on that site and there's a lot of tools you can use. One is a calculator - yeah, there's one that calculates old fuel economy so if you happen to know what your old fuel economy was in the city and highway; you can punch in the numbers. Now, these are the numbers that were reported by the manufacturer not what you recorded yourself at the fuel pump every time you filled up but I'm talking about the numbers that were reported on your window sticker. If you were to input those numbers into a calculator that they have, they will recalculate them for the 2008 standards and give you the new numbers.

Ben Bowlin: And let's also just point out this is awesome because earlier we mentioned that the way the EPA arrives at these tests, at these numbers, that that method can be very complex.

Scott Benjamin: Yeah, it's not a simple matter of driving for three minutes and stopping and that's your - you know, calculate how much fuel you used. The tests are actually pretty complex and you can get to them on the site - I've got actually the way you can get to the detailed information for the tests if you'd like to hear it.

Ben Bowlin: Oh, yeah, that's cool. Lead us through.

Scott Benjamin: Okay. That's - okay.

Ben Bowlin: So -

Scott Benjamin: Bear with me here. It's only three steps really but I think it's so valuable that people will want to look it up. I really do because the information on the test is pretty interesting and I think it'll give you a better glimpse into what we're talking about here.

Ben Bowlin: And you want to know what's going on.

Scott Benjamin: Yeah, that's right. Everybody wants to know what's going on. So, from the homepage, again, at kind of scan down to the bottom of the page or scroll down and there's a section called new fuel economy ratings. It's near the bottom of the page. It's got a little photo with it. Click on that link. That opens up another page. On the left-hand side, select fuel economy tests and then that will open up a couple of subtopics below it. There's one called detailed test information on the left-hand side and that's where you'll get the information that we've been talking about today.

Ben Bowlin: That's where you can take a close look at it.

Scott Benjamin: Yeah, sure and somewhere within there, one of those pages I just mentioned is where you can find all these different gas mileage tips and you can compare vehicles, you can report your own mileage so you can help track the way certain vehicles are performing. It was pretty interesting stuff but if you go to the detail comparison - you can look up each test individually. I've selected detailed comparison and I've got kind of a rundown of every test and what's involved in the test and the average speeds, the idle time that each vehicle spends, maximum acceleration, it's got the test duration which is how long the test takes in minutes, the other tabs actually do test in seconds which is kind of unusual which is usually like 1250 seconds but here they've got it broken down to minutes and seconds.The number of stops was kind of surprising because, you know, you find that for the city tests there's 23 stops involved and for the highway there's none, obviously, but then when you get up to the high speed test, there are four stops involved which I found kind of unusual but I think that's because of the - didn't we say something like a moderate traffic flow -

Ben Bowlin: Yeah.

Scott Benjamin: - during that test so that must be that. If you're talking highway, you may come up to a place where you have to stop. Interesting stuff but if you look at the detailed comparison, that's a pretty interesting tab to check out because there's a lot of information there but just take a few minutes to comb over it and I think you'll get some good info.

Ben Bowlin: Definitely. Let's take a different approach in this situation and let's say that we want to - because we know that mileage on the actual road may vary, let's say that we're a concerned car owner who wants to forgo the internet and calculate the mileage for themselves.

Scott Benjamin: Oh, yeah, simple. I do this all the time.

Ben Bowlin: Okay.

Scott Benjamin: I really do. Not every time but I do it often enough that I'm familiar with how to do it. You have to start with a full tank of fuel. Okay. Its better if you pull up to the pump and you know you're going to do this for the tank of fuel that you're filling right now.

Ben Bowlin: Is it - okay, quick question. Do you have to have an empty tank and then fill it up or it just has to be full?

Scott Benjamin: No, it just has to be full because what you want to do is you want to get your tank completely full and reset your trip odometer.

Ben Bowlin: Okay.

Scott Benjamin: Okay. Simple enough, right, to reset it to zero right there at the pump! The next time you fill up, you know, even if it's 10 gallons, if it's five gallons, whatever it is, make sure that you read the mileage in the trip odometer and then use the number of gallons that you pump into the tank at that time and make sure it goes back up to full again, that's what you have to do. Make sure it goes back up to full again and then simply divide the number of gallons into the number of miles that you've traveling and there you've got your miles per gallon.

Ben Bowlin: That sounds like it's pretty easy to do.

Scott Benjamin: It's really simple. I do it on trips all the time because, you know, you got a pretty impressive number usually, highway miles are pretty good. I was a little bit upset with my most recent one. I've got a Honda Civic and I got - I gotta tell you - I got 19.5 gallons or rather, miles per gallon.

Ben Bowlin: You got that AC on.

Scott Benjamin: For the last tank. We were just talking about that and I just mentioned that it was 95 degrees here and I think I've been doing a lot of idling while having the AC on in traffic and it's just killing my miles per gallon so you can see how this can vary so much because I'm accustomed to getting somewhere in the neighborhood of 27, 28. Using the AC and being stuff in an idle situation, my mileage has already gone to 19.5.

Ben Bowlin: Okay. And, so, if you're someone who has decided to calculate the MPG of your vehicle, just for the extra information, why not go and compare it to the stats of your car manufacturer or the actual EPA stats on because from what we're hearing, they'll probably be some difference.

Scott Benjamin: Oh, yeah, there's always variance and I kind of like to do that myself, too, I like to go back because that's - one thing they've done is they're retroactively gone back - I don't know if that's the right way to say that or not, they've gone back to 1985 and adjusted every miles per gallon stat for the vehicles listed from 200 - I think it's up to 2010 - so, 2010 through 1985 have been adjusted for this new testing format so it's pretty interesting to take a look at it.

Ben Bowlin: So, you can find all the information you need.

Scott Benjamin: Yeah.

Ben Bowlin: Yeah, I feel like we've got a pretty good handle on this but there's two things we have to do before we can call it a day here.

Scott Benjamin: What's that?

Ben Bowlin: Well, first I think that we should - let's see, we've got two things. There's a VW we could talk about or there's a very interesting piece of listener mail. What do you feel like?

Scott Benjamin: Let's talk about the VW first. How about that because I'm familiar with that! I think I know what you're getting at here but go ahead and hit me with it.

Ben Bowlin: I've heard somewhere that there is a Volkswagen that is reputed to have 58 miles per gallon rating. Have you heard this?

Scott Benjamin: I have. I've actually seen the ad. Yeah, I have. And I guess I'm going to be a little tight-lipped on this and I'll tell you why because I blogged about this on - I think it was Monday, June 29th so it was about - what, is that eight or nine days ago? And what I did was I kind of dispelled the myth, I guess, of this add because there's - it's getting a lot of press that here's this Jetta that's getting 58 miles per gallon, it's a Jetta TDI. Clean diesel engine and I don't know, it's interesting! Take a look at the ad, take a look at the blog posting. There's links to the site, the commercial rather and I think you'll find it interesting but it's pretty easy to come away from that ad thinking that this vehicle does get 58 miles per gallon.

Ben Bowlin: Oh, man, you caught me. When I was saying I heard about it somewhere, I was talking about your blog.

Scott Benjamin: I knew you're a blog reader. I knew it.

Ben Bowlin: I read - I'm sorry.

Scott Benjamin: I knew it.

Ben Bowlin: I read blogs.

Scott Benjamin: That's good. No, don't be sorry for that. That's a good thing. Sometimes it'll come across if it's pretty interesting like that so I try to get that on there when I can.

Ben Bowlin: Hey, man, I love to read blogs, books, stats -

Scott Benjamin: You know what one other thing you should read though, if we're talking about EPA and the mileage and all this, we do have an article on our site that's also pretty good about this. It is called How the 2008 EPA Fuel Economy Ratings Work, and you couldn't get a more concise explanation of how these things operate because this was an article that was written just as these were changing and I think you'll find it pretty interesting but it's really clear and it's just straight to the point so I think it's a good read.

Ben Bowlin: And up to date.

Scott Benjamin: And up to date. That's right.

Ben Bowlin: That's awesome.

Scott Benjamin: Yeah, so you want to move onto listener mail?

Ben Bowlin: You know what, let's do it.

Scott Benjamin: All right. So, here we have a note from Brannon, that's B-R-A-N-N-O-N, Brannon. Okay. And Brannon says that he just listed to our Auto Trends of the Past Podcast and he wants to mention that he lives in - where was it here - he lives in Okinawa, Japan.

Ben Bowlin: Okinawa, Japan.

Scott Benjamin: Okinawa, Japan. Yep.

Ben Bowlin: Awesome.

Scott Benjamin: That's pretty impressive. We have a listener in Okinawa. Anyway, he says that they have a subtropical climate. In the summer, it's hot and humid all the time and, you know, a lot of sweat so of course you're in your car and, you know, you sit in the seat and it just gets real sticky and gross so he says that, you know, those beaded car seat covers? I think we mentioned them during the -

Ben Bowlin: We did. We mentioned those on that podcast.

Scott Benjamin: - podcast. Yeah, he said that that is a way that they combat some of the - I guess sticking to the seat and the sweating because it allows air to flow between your body and the car seat and that makes perfect sense. It's very functional.

Ben Bowlin: That's an awesome point. We actually - when we checked out this email from you, Brannon, I actually went and called some of my friends who live in hotter areas and let them know and for our listeners out there, if you're sweating away right now on uncomfortable seats or if you're one of those people who walks by your car in the parking deck and cringe at the thought of having to jump in and give yourself a little bit of back burn then this might not be an auto trend of the past for you.

Scott Benjamin: I know I've seen them around here. I just - like I said, I guess I never paid attention to why they were there. I thought maybe it was a therapeutic thing like maybe it was comfortable on your back but it seems to me that it'd be the opposite. It seems like it would be uncomfortable but I doubt it is.

Ben Bowlin: Right, but now I feel like we get it.

Scott Benjamin: Yeah, yeah, it must be comfortable. I mean, enough people - I've seen enough people with them that it must be of value.

Ben Bowlin: Yeah, so, Brannon thanks so much for writing in. To our listeners, thanks again for spending some time with us. Hope you enjoyed the podcast. If you have any questions about the EPA, MPG, I don't know, Scott, beaded seat covers, anything automotive related, please feel free to send us an email at

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